Before Rian Johnson could create Poker Face, his critically acclaimed mystery-of-the-week series starring Natasha Lyonne, he had to learn how the wonderful world of television worked. In order to school himself properly, he enlisted the help of showrunners — and sisters — Nora and Lilla Zuckerman who showed him the ropes, taught him the ins and outs of a TV writers’ room, and helped him realize his original, ambitious vision.
“I was very, very lucky to have Lilla and Nora showing me the ropes of how that works, and how to work in the writers’ room, and to have a really talented group of writers to collaborate with,” Johnson told Decider on working with the siblings.
As the oldest of five, the dynamic Zuckerman duo has worked together for decades, producing and writing for shows like Suits, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D, and Prodigal Son. “We’ve been partners in crime since the very beginning,” Nora Zuckerman told Decider in a Zoom interview. “Us against everyone.” On this particular project, however, they had no trouble letting Johnson into their sisters club.
“Rian is used to writing alone in a cabin in the woods over the period of many, many months. He is used to having time — in television, you don’t have the luxury of time — and so he knew that he needed collaborators,” Lilla said. “You don’t know how people are going to react to writing in a group, right? He was just a natural. We were like, ‘Rian! You’re a TV writer!'”
On top of their showrunner duties, the Zuckerman sisters also served as executive producers and writers on Poker Face. They wrote Episode 9, “Escape From Shit Mountain,” and teased it for Decider while gushing over two of its stars, Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Stephanie Hsu. Read on for our full interview, where “the Zucks” (as Johnson calls them) discuss everything from working with Lyonne and their love of Noah Segan to their casting dreams for Season 2.
Decider: Poker Face is Rian Johnson’s first TV show, and he’s said how essential you both were to it getting made. What was it like showing him the ropes TV-wise, working together in the writers room, and helping helm such a unique project?
Lilla Zuckerman: I mean, Rian is used to writing alone in a cabin in the woods over the period of many, many months. He is used to having time — in television, you don’t have the luxury of time — and so he knew that he needed collaborators. And we were so happy that he was an excellent collaborator. He really was. We told him, “Hey, you’re gonna be writing with the team, and we assembled this terrific writers’ room, and here’s how it’s gonna work, and here’s how we come up with ideas, and here’s the vibe we want to take, and here’s the process we want to take it through.” And he was completely onboard. You don’t know how people are going to react to writing in a group, right? He was just a natural. We were like, “Rian! You’re a TV writer!”
Nora Zuckerman: I know. I mean, Lil and I approached this with the idea that he could hate this. Like, he could hate this process. [Laughs] Some people are very sort of solitary, ponderous, if I have a problem I want to think about it for 48 hours and bang my head against a wall before I find the solution. And in a TV writers’ room, you’re like, I’m going to bang my head against your head until we all figure this out together. And hopefully you find the solution in an hour instead of two days. So I think he really began to sort of appreciate the brain trust and the safety net that having a bunch of collaborators brings you.
Well in addition to the writing, the casting for this show — especially Natasha — is perfection. What was it like working with her, not only seeing her bring Charlie to life, but also watching her write and direct.
L. Zuckerman: The thing is, Natasha is like a true multi-hyphenate. So when we were in the room, she would come and hang out with us [and visit]. She ended up writing an episode, and so we were in the room with her everyday breaking that episode. And then that was the episode that she also directed, and she is such a talented performer, no doubt. But watching her direct was such a joy. She is an amazing director. I think that’s probably where she feels most at home, actually behind the lens. And she’s wonderful at it, and then she would be behind the lens and she’s like, “OK,” and she would walk onto set and play her part and then come back and watch it. I was like, “How is she doing this? How is she switching back and forth?” It was pretty remarkable.
N. Zuckerman: Yeah, I mean, we’ve one other time in our career worked with an actor who was acting in the episode and directing it. And it’s always a challenge, you know? But Natasha really just is so used to it it’s like second nature to her. It was really fun. And she was a joy in the writers’ room. She’s constantly asking questions. She’s very curious. She wants to talk through a solution. She is just as down as everybody else is to really get down to the to the nitty gritty of the story.
Speaking of the writers’ room, I believe you two wrote the penultimate episode of the season, “Escape From Shit Mountain,” which sounds hilarious and stars Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Are you able to tease that episode at all?
L. Zuckerman: Well, we have an amazing cast for Episode 9. Joseph Gordon-Levitt and also Stephanie Hsu is in that episode.
N. Zuckerman: Who we had just seen in Everything Everywhere All at Once I think literally days before she came to set, and so we were very starstruck. We got there and we were like, “Oh my god.”
L. Zuckerman: She’s amazing.
N. Zuckerman: She’s so good. It was awesome. I mean, we felt really lucky. And Episode 9 was actually the first episode of Poker Face that we shot because it takes place in winter. So it’s an interesting little Easter egg.
L. Zuckerman: And I will say that the one thing about having Joseph Gordon-Levitt on set is he plays this character that is so wicked, so diabolical, but also funny. And he is a really funny actor and also incredibly, like, physically adept. He does a lot of physical humor in this episode, without ruining anything. He just commits and throws his whole body into this role. He’s wonderful.
N. Zuckerman: There’s one take of him, I think it’s actually in the trailer, where he’s in the snow. And we had some fake snow [and] some manufactured snow. And to reset it, it has to be perfect. And he did it in one shot. We were like, “Holy shit, we got it.” He just nailed it, knew exactly where to hit. And it looked physically so tough, but he just nailed it and it was like, “We don’t need to go again. We got it.” That was working with him. He was great.
I can’t wait to see that episode. Is there someone you would love to see cast if the show continues? I know Natasha has said she would like to see Poker Face run for 76 seasons, so are you on board for that as well?
L. Zuckerman: I certainly think I have 76 seasons worth of ideas.
N. Zuckerman: We might need some help. We may need a little help.
L. Zuckerman: The wonderful thing about this show is that it is designed to just be an ongoing thing, because it is so episodic that you can set one of these murder mysteries anywhere. And I think what we wanted to do was really peel back and take a look at the heartland of America and the characters that are there, and really surprise people with where we could set these stories.
N. Zuckerman: Yeah. And in terms of actors we’d love to see, I mean, we felt so lucky to get the people we got for this season. It was hard to talk people out of — at the end of their shoot they would ask, “Can I come back next season as a different character?” You know, cause Columbo used to do that. So I actually think it would be really fun to find somebody from Season 1 and bring them back in a potential Season 2 as like a totally different character, totally against part or against type.
L. Zuckerman: We were like, this could be a repertory. It could be like The Poker Face Players. We’ll just kind of bring people back but put them in completely different roles.
I love that. Well, I’m sure we’ll see Noah Segan back.
N. Zuckerman: Well, yeah. Noah is Rian’s lucky penny.
L. Zuckerman: Noah is always welcome.
N. Zuckerman: And I think he’s so good in this in the pilot. His [scene] with Charlie is maybe I think the best scene in the pilot. It’s so funny. It gets the most laughs. And he’s a delight, too. So we can’t get rid of him. We’ve gotta bring him back.
This interview was edited for length and clarity.
The first four episodes of Poker Face are now streaming on Peacock with new episodes dropping weekly on Thursdays.